In light of the recent grand jury decision not to indict Sgt. Michael Olsen in the shooting death of Kevin Brown, News 8 Austin invited Austin's Police Chief, Art Acevedo, and Austin NAACP President Nelson Linder to talk about their perspectives on the Austin Police Department and its role in the community.
Q: Let me ask you, Mr. Linder, first, about the issue of deadly force. From your perspective, when is it warranted?
Linder: I think we looked at the state penal code and it says really that if the officer feels threatened or another person’s life is threatened and there is imminent danger, I think, in that case, you have the right to respond to protect yourself and the life of others. But, also, we need to talk about officers’ job. They have a job to protect the life of residents and their property. It goes from that. That’s where it all starts. But I think it’s also important to understand, you have to look at perception and reality. You need to make sure that you are sure that this is, in fact, an imminent danger before you begin to sort of analyze anything. So I think you have the responsibility to make sure there is a threat that actually exists, which is kind of a risk management. That process has to be into play before you do anything involving a weapon, in my opinion.
Q: Chief, from the law enforcement perspective, in terms of the use of deadly force. Line it out for us. When is it warranted?
Acevedo: Well, deadly force is, first of all, it has to be reasonable; a reasonable perception that you are in fear for loss of your life or a serious bodily injury or another person. I always ask my officers to ask themselves three questions, evaluate three issues: Am I within policy? Am I within the law? And the third thing I encourage them to do: Am I morally justified in using deadly force? Fortunately, they rarely occur, but when they do, they obviously create a lot of controversy in the community, so it’s something we weigh very heavily.
Q: Specifically, here in Austin, Mr. Linder, do you feel that members of the APD, when they’re responding, that the use of deadly force in their mind, if it’s a member of the minority community, that it’s more likely to happen than if the suspect is not a minority?
Linder: I think it’s very clear that some officers, fortunately a small percentage, obviously have culture issues; I know African-Americans and, to some extent, Hispanics, as well. And for some reason, they seem to value the life of African-Americans less than other people. I think it’s cultural, psychological, historical and we need to address that. And I think the numbers show that. But it’s a small percentage, so I think if we were to address that small percentage, we could probably control these kind of situations. It’s not the whole force. It’s a small number of people that, for some reason, do these things in a repetitive way and they’re not being addressed. But, certainly, the problem exists, but on a small scale, but when it happens, it affects everybody.
Q: Chief, that perception there from Mr. Linder and from others in the community – What are your thoughts about that? That has to concern you?
Acevedo: Well, I think perception can really be damaging. Perception in the minds of the person that’s perceiving it is reality, so whether it’s real or perceived, the damage to the relationship between the organization and the community is the same. So, one of the things that we have to do is ensure that our officers are meeting the diverse communities, are interacting with the diverse community, so they realize and the folks in the community realize that we are all very similar. We may look different, we may have different cultural backgrounds, but at the end of the day, we have the same goals and that’s to live a life free of crime and free of fear.
Q: In light of the non-indictment of Sgt. Olsen and the administrative review that now continues, take us through that. What takes place in an administrative review that is different from what the grand jury would look at?
Acevedo: Well, there’s a couple of things I want to point out. First, there is still a criminal investigation that is open by the Department of Justice, which is separate from ours, but, as you can imagine, that sometimes takes a long time, so I want to move forward. An administrative review takes a look at a very global review of everything led up to the use of force, including the tactics. I will be looking very critically at every discharge, every bullet that was discharged, from the first one to the last one. So, the grand jury has a very narrow focus, based on the charge they’re looking at, but from an administrative perspective, it will much more global.
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Exclusive interview
Watch the interview with Mr. Linder and Mr. Acevedo.
 
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Q: Mr. Linder, are you confident on this administrative review of how it will be conducted?
Linder: I think it’s very comprehensive. If you look at data around the country, oftentimes in these kind of reviews, they look a lot more and there’s a much better result in terms of justice, in our opinion. Unfortunately, though, that should occur in every situation, including the grand jury. Why is it when you have an ad review, you’re looking at policies and expectations, but on the grand jury process, you’re being instructed by a DA? Basically, what he says, goes. So, I think those two things need to be reconciled where there is a consistency that happens on both levels. That way, the message is very clear from a community standpoint and that’s not happening. So, in many ways, you’re passing the buck to the police department and I think that’s unacceptable, in my opinion.
Q: Let me ask you, Chief, I know at the news conference that you held after the grand jury’s decision, you mentioned how you appreciate the, I think you said the measured response from members of the community. Elaborate on that, what you mean by that, as far as what you’re hopeful will be the response in light of the decision.
Acevedo: Well, I am very hopeful and very relieved that we live in a community where, although we may have differences, that we are very civil in a manner that we express those differences. I believe that speaks volumes of the community, that some may fear, some may not fear, and in moving forward, I have lived through civil unrest and I have responded to civil unrest in Los Angeles and no one wins in those situations. It’s a lose-lose. We have processes. We are in a democracy and I am very happy that the folks here use those processes and that we work together to make Austin better.
Q: From your standpoint, as head of the NAACP here, what would you hope would be the community response, right now, where we are in terms of this investigation?
Linder: I think to see that we do have a process and we have to give it a chance to work. We also have a responsibility if processes don’t work. We live in a democracy. For example, the Constitution has been amended several times; 13th amended to abolish slavery, 14th says due process and protection. So, if the system is not working, we have a responsibility to change it and make it work for everybody. And, unfortunately, when it comes to black people in this city, it’s not working, in my opinion. So, we have to address that in many different ways. This is a societal issue that is not being addressed and we suffer because of that.
Q: Let’s talk about communication between APD, specifically, and the minority community. First of all, how did you find out about the results of the grand jury?
Linder: I got several phone calls from friends who were reading emails, that called that morning and said, “Hey Nelson, did you hear the message?” I said, of course, I did. Of course, I said we were appalled, not surprised. That was kind of across the board, but folks who read these all the time and who have time to watch the emails all day get this stuff first. So, that’s how I found out about it, basically.
Q: I know that word spreads quickly on something like that and, Chief, you had mentioned that you also wanted to try to inform. What was your message, in terms of trying to get in touch with community leaders to let them know where the process is right now?
Acevedo: Well, we wanted to make sure that the community leaders knew it was coming, that this decision was going to be rendered. And, I wanted to assure them that we, in the Austin Police Department, we are going to continue with our process, that the review is not complete, that the review continues, both from a criminal standpoint and administrative standpoint, and I just asked for their support in making sure that we keep control out in the streets and in the community and that we move forward to solve problems, not to create new problems.
Q: Let me ask you, just in terms of just the bigger picture of the perception of APD within the minority community. I’ll ask you, Chief, first. What can be done to maybe regain the trust that may have been lost among some of those other opinions?
Acevedo: Well, first of all, I just want to make it real clear. We do not have control of the process, criminal, in terms of, once we complete our investigation. I am very confident that the investigation we completed that was criminal included every aspect of the incident, but I think what needs to be done is we need to continue to have the dialogue, to be out in the community. Most importantly, when things are brought to my attention and officers step out where they shouldn’t be, we need to hold them accountable. Seeing that 98 percent, 99 percent, 99.9 percent of the cops are really doing the right thing, we owe it to that group of officers to hold everyone accountable.
Q: What do you think in terms of opening up that dialogue and what can be done, what should be done?
Linder: I think it’s being done already, thanks to Chief Acevedo. The phone calls I got from his offices. I think his outreach has been tremendous. I think he’s warm. I think he’s frank. We appreciate that. That’s a total change from what we had in the past. But, I think another issue, as well, we have to have the proper personnel in the right situations. If you look in our past history, we’ve had officers who had problematic behavior in the most challenging situations. That should never be. You’ve got to put your best officers where they should be to make sure that they have their skill being used all the time. And, if you did that, some of the things wouldn’t occur. The Olsen case, you look at Scott Glasgow, some of these guys had no business being in those communities, based on our history, so early warning systems, measuring force and putting your best officers with trained skills with our people. Because, lets face it. e have cultures, but at the same time, we’re human beings. So, if you have the right principals, you can always address the other issues. Folks want fairness, they want respect. We haven’t gotten that. We’ve been given, in many cases, worse officers, and that hasn’t been addressed for the most part. Put your best guys in the right situations and hold the other people accountable. That’s how you solve this problem. Hold folks accountable, be very consistent and folks will know that you’re fair.
Q: Chief, I know that you’re new in this position now, for Austin. What is that process? Is some of what Mr. Linder is talking about something you use, that you perhaps changed how things are done at APD?
Acevedo: Well, I think that, first of all, APD is a great organization, but as coming in from the outside, any organization, no matter how good they are, there’s always room for improvement. I see some room for improvement and some opportunities. You will see us change our training protocols, you will see us improving, I believe and making them better, our recertification protocols. All the skills the officers use are perishable, whether it’s arresting control, whether it’s firearms, whether it’s tactics. We will be putting a system into place on a yearly basis, every sworn member of the police department will certify in each perishable skill and I think that will go a long way. I really believe that sometimes uses of force is not about a bad cop, it’s about a poorly trained cop. If I’m going to hold them accountable, I’ve got to make sure they’re trained properly.
Q: I don’t think Mr. Linder, I’ll let you follow up on that. And also, maybe some of the things that you have seen over the past years and even maybe most recently, as Chief Acevedo is here, of things that APD is doing that is headed in absolutely the right direction and you’d like to see more of.
Linder: I think one of the things is you’ve got good officers, like Officer Holt and others, who are what I call doing practice community policing. It’s not just a concept, it’s a behavior. When police officers speak to people on the street, they hang out on the street and act like they’re human beings, folks kind of reciprocate that. So, I think when you have real officers who can see and identify and relate to, it basically separates those kinds of barriers. I would say, if you put your personnel like that in the right place and do true community policing, a lot of this stuff will dissipate and we haven’t had it in the past. We’ve had some – I’m not saying this – We’ve had some fully trained, in my opinion, introverted officers in the bad places and, as a result, they don’t communicate and so the fears tend to increase. We need to change it by having the right officers who are very extroverted who will engage people, will engage people, have conversations, they’re doing coffee, where – we just talk. Basic things that people do with human beings. We’re all human beings. Sometimes we forget that.
Q: Chief, finally, in just your experience now so far, here, what about a month officially, roughly, on the job here? What strikes you as you go through the community and particularly the minority community of maybe either some common themes that concern folks or things that, boy, you see a really positive in your wanting to latch a hold of, as well?
Acevedo: Well, I see a community that’s reasonable and I see a police force that’s reasonable and I believe that the differences that we have we can change. We can change the perception. We can change the relationship and community policing is about the DR. Community policing is about a philosophy and an attitude that every member of the police department needs to have and that is that we’re here to serve, we’re here to protect and we’re here to engage the community. Every time they have a contact, they should try their very best to make it a positive contact, regardless of what it is.
